Ba609?

[eersfanpilot]

I would like to get your thoughts on the BA609. I am interested especially in those who operate in a flight dept that has both aircraft and helicopters. Do you all foresee this being the new aircraft of the future for operators such as aero-medical, off shore, construction??

 

I think the aircraft is amazing, I love the V-22.

 

What do you all think?

[skullcap]

Hmmmm, and what do you think about vortex ring state in either of these things???

 

Or hmmmm, autorotations,,,,heard the v22 will autorotate,,,,at 5000 fpm and 170 kts.....and has been demostrated in a,,,,,,simulator,,,,,,jmho

[eersfanpilot]

Hmmmm, and what do you think about vortex ring state in either of these things???

 

Or hmmmm, autorotations,,,,heard the v22 will autorotate,,,,at 5000 fpm and 170 kts.....and has been demostrated in a,,,,,,simulator,,,,,,jmho

 

 

Are not all rotorcraft susceptible to VRS? That is a bit like saying you would not fly an airplane because it could stall and spin. If that was you main concern you would not fly any airplane. Granted the 609 may be more susceptible to VRS than a typical rotorcraft but it was my impression that the early V22's were the most susceptible to VRS and they have since had greater success in the development.

 

During cruise flight autorotation would not be capable anyway, you would have to try to hit your L/D max and obtain your best glide speed while in airplane configuration. I think the only time you would be worried about performing an autorotation would be during takeoff and landing, and that only depends on how long you take to transition.

[lelebebbel]

Are not all rotorcraft susceptible to VRS?

Yes, but in the V22 it is not recoverable.

[skullcap]

During cruise flight autorotation would not be capable anyway, you would have to try to hit your L/D max and obtain your best glide speed while in airplane configuration. I think the only time you would be worried about performing an autorotation would be during takeoff and landing, and that only depends on how long you take to transition.

 

 

They limit the rate of descent to stay out of vortex ring, it is definetly not recoverable.

 

Your statement above is another great reason to stay away.

 

Personally think a true helicopter or true airplane is a little safer, till they can figure it out. Got to be a reason you don't see them,,,?

[Ryan]

what happens when the tilting mechanism fails... and it will on some unlucky machine eventually. does it have something like a blow-down bottle used to extend landing gear, but in the 609 used to force it from fly to hover configuration?

 

I'd imagine you'd need to approach a runway with an huge amount of speed to maintain lift from those short little wings, even if just to keep it above stalling. and even with the gear down but the wings locked in fly, those massive props would strike the ground long before the wheels. with the arc of the props coming within a few feet of the fuselage, wouldn't wanna be sitting anywhere inside when they let loose!

 

they are a beauty of a machine no doubt, but I'll be content to watch from below until I know more about it. would make a great EMS machine though, but way to big for any hospital pad. would still only be able to operate airport to airport. could be good at going to remote strips though for pick-ups that are beyond the range of helicopters but too small for a King Air or a Lear... an inbetween machine of sorts?

[TwistedSpar]

I worked on helicopters and King Airs (medevac) at the same time for a few years and would believe that this a/c will find it's niche in the medevac, corporate transfer market, but it's going to be so high priced, it may be out of reach for a huge portion of the market. The US market will see them many years before our dinosaur like industry catches up.

With the complexity of the systems involved, just imagine for one second, the AD list that will be generated in short order....Hopefully there will be some major program in place to reduce the time down and cost involved in fixing all those dirty little secrets that made it through the flight testing phase.

 

above all it is an interesting concept, interesting sleek design, but still a dream in my opinion.

[eersfanpilot]

Got to be a reason you don't see them,,,?

 

Probably because they are not being delivered to the civilian market for another 2 years.

 

 

All good points. I think what is exciting about this is the fact you know this is early technology for tiltrotor aircraft. There have been other aircraft prior to this but I think the major reason for an overall lack of success then was insufficient computer technology. Now that we have the 609 and the 22 there will only be more advancements in this area.

[skullcap]

Probably because they are not being delivered to the civilian market for another 2 years.

 

 

Jeez, Northern Mountain put a deposit for two of them in 98 I believe,,,,,,delivery in 2 years.....Canada had a tilt wing as opposed to tilt rotor close to 60 years ago, great ideas but just not capable of doing both helicopter or fixed wing to the same safety margins that exist in the pure form. What about the aircar, you know the gizmo with 4 fans and 4 engines,,,millions of bucks and still parked....

 

Perhaps the ability to change shape of blades in flight with new technology will be the saving grace, doubt if a computer will be able to tell the machine that a gust of wind over a building/rock is coming and the rate of descent must be changed to avoid vortex ring,,,,or that the engines have failed and out pop 5 parachutes to let you down easy.

 

Guess you can tell my opinion, I watched a very mild mannered aeronautical engineer turn into a raving loony about these machines, he was deeply involved with the aircraft and convinced this chopper driver that I ain't settin foot in one.

 

Love new technology, hate seeing new technology attempting to fix an inherant political clusterduck, because quite frankly if it was safe we would not be discussing the future of them but discussing traits of the ones we are flying.

 

Sorry to crap in your cornflakes but many folks see them as what certain people would like us to believe, as "the best of both worlds" but when it comes to safety they behave "worse than the worst of both worlds".

 

 

 

sc

[Freefall]

The v22 that crashed from vortex ring and killed all the marines was in a decent prior to entering vrs that was outside the limits in the flight manual at the time. It was also a demonstration and he was trying to put on a good show.

 

They now have audio warnings before they get anywhere near the conditions for it to be a danger. They have been flying them for 20 years now so it isn't exactly super new technology.

 

I'd be interested to know if they can autorotate with both engines out. I'm sure oei they are ok but the blades have so much twist in them you wouldn't think it gives them much spin in an auto without any power.

 

I think the success of both the 609 and v22 will result in quite a few new models down the road once the concept is proven.