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Out Of Control


Dude

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Hello guys,

 

Rather then hi-jack the TC thread thought it would be more appropriate to start a new rant here.

 

Are companies in Canada getting out of control?No names please as this would not be appropriate and against the rules if I have read them correctly.

 

It appears from the outside that the rest of the rotorwing industry worldwide has moved into the 21st century. Yet, we as Canadian's are lagging well behind.

 

Is it that we are a very passive culture by nature?

 

What are the concerns out there right now?

 

Dude

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No longterm investment in the future ie. Fleet renewal, Aging aircraft.

Low tariff rates and infighting within the industry itself.

Too many operators and too many helicopters than demand requires, hence the low customer driven rates.

 

But the number one (#1) reason the Canadian Rotor Industry is behind the times:

All aircraft and aircraft parts are in American dollars $.

 

Comparison with USA specifically: Para Military, Private Health Care and Government Organizations are the drive behind helicopter growth/development, the fact that many operations require twin-engine 24/7 dispatch & those pesky FAR requirements (operation over built up areas etc.).

 

Also the US has 10 times the population in a smaller area, therefore more helicopter application exist.

 

:shock:

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mOLE ------ parts always were in USD. The difference is that at one time Canadian rates were higher than the Americans, but both were waaaaaay behind the rest of the world. In 1968 the going rate for a 206 in North America was about $260-$325/hr. At the same time, a Bell 47G4 was going for exactly the same rate in the Far East. The Americans gradually increased their rates and finally surpassed us because our rates went stagnant wioth all the "chisel-charters" that arose after De-regulation. So the price paid for American parts is a factor that's always been there and is really just a "mirage" that masks the real problem. Sorry, but when 206's are going-out the door nowadays for $499/hr, then that ain't what you can call "moving ahead", specially when you reflect back on what they were going for in October 1968. Hard to get a raise based on those factors also.

 

The rest of your statements are just about "bang-on" though.

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A 206 in Europe costs around 500 pounds per hour, which is around $1150 Can - and we still pay for parts in $US

 

We've got chiselling companies over here, too, but the difference here is that the customer is not always right. More often than not they get shown the door if they get stupid, but there are still people who will do anything to make a Euro

 

Phil

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mOLE ------ parts always were in USD. The difference is that at one time Canadian rates were higher than the Americans, but both were waaaaaay behind the rest of the world. In 1968 the going rate for a 206 in North America was about $260-$325/hr. At the same time, a Bell 47G4 was going for exactly the same rate in the Far East. The Americans gradually increased their rates and finally surpassed us because our rates went stagnant wioth all the "chisel-charters" that arose after De-regulation. So the price paid for American parts is a factor that's always been there and is really just a "mirage" that masks the real problem. Sorry, but when 206's are going-out the door nowadays for $499/hr, then that ain't what you can call "moving ahead",  specially when you reflect back on what they were going for in October 1968. Hard to get a raise based on those factors also.

 

The rest of your statements are just about "bang-on" though.

 

 

Hey Cap,

Haven't heard of a 206 rate like that for years! What part of the country is that happening?

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Dude, aside from exchange rates, what is your intent, "Yet, we as Canadian's are lagging well behind"?

 

Please elaborate on a "passive culture by nature"

 

As for industry specific concerns... the dynamic we have to work with in Canada has produced some very creative operators and some very unique pilots, hence the concern... some can and some can't operate safely and or effectively within the parameters of the current marketplace which leads to your first question.

 

"Are companies in Canada getting out of control?"

 

Banks, absolutely! Helicopter companies? There is a much greater possibilty for market innovation since deregulation... some good some bad.

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Albert Ross ------Touche!

 

T55 ----- that is common in the central part. Like that one? How about $1,450/hr for an 85 hr contract........for a 212?....eastern Canada. Oh and "No", they didn't have their profit built-in the "Positioning Charges" either. Can you spell "Lost Leader?" :D How do you compete with that, drop your rates somewhat, still hand out raises and up the benefits? The "Golden Rule" in F/W eons ago for a necessary rate/hr used to be 1% of whatever the price was that you paid for the a/c. There are some, but very few helicopters getting those rates these days. At the price of a new 206 out of Mirebel it should be getting about the same rates that Albert Ross mentioned they get in Europe then. I don't know of too many brand new 206's getting those rates in Canada right now.....do you? :lol:

 

kjw57 -----no it doesn't work when you have buildings, utilities and benefits and overhead that goes with and you worked to establish all that over 15-20 years. I lease an a/c outta Calgary for $50,000, get a box of Kim towels and a grease gun, contract-out my maintenance, come and park my *** opposite your business and then under-cut the **** outta you for the summer. Maybe I make and maybe I don't......but you definitely feel it. If I don't, I declare company bankruptcy and 32 days later or next year at the latest, I do it all over again to somebody else. Try all that pre-Deregulation and you'd have to have one **** of a lot more money of your OWN on the table before you could get to first base. Now you'd need the rates also because declaring bankruptcy ain't so funny when you put your house up as collateral for part of that company money perhaps. Try telling the wife she don't live here anymore because you charged lower rates than you should have and had a bad summer.

 

Having said that much, you'll always have "certain people" with very deep pockets and "delusions of grandeur" that will have a WHOLE BUNCH of "lost leaders" and the idea of cornering the market and running the others out. They've always been around and always will be and they've come and gone over the years like rashes of syphillis that they report outbreaks of every now and then across Canada.

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Financial difficulty is a compounding problem for companies that begins with rates lower than believable. Predatory pricing (one company trying to starve another out) does not help the situation. Canada has a lot of helicopters, yet operates very few new ones (turbines) as a general rule. Most third world countries are much better customers for the manufacturers than Canada. Canadians buy used parts, South Americans buy new helicopters. Canadians can keep old a/c running better than anybody else in the world. The pilots and engineers in Canada will not get newer a/c to fly and fix, wages to go up, etc. until the operators raise their rates. Opertators that have customers that only award work based only on price should possibly think about profit margins not just how many more machines can we operate. I'll get off my soap box now.

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My greatest concern is predatory oor deceptive hiring practices

 

example: Contract pilot - ( with no contract?)

 

I really feel that companies have to be a little clearer and the matter standardized.

 

Another thing would be companies saying that they have full time work, as far as I am concerned this does not mean laying off when it slows this would be seasonal!

 

Better wages for higher time guys, a minimum of 225 per day+ hourly should be standard. there is no way with the cost of training that a pilot should be paid less than a janitor.

 

Companies should also stop screwing pilots for relocation costs, the eastern Czar group is notorius for this and I have been personally shafted on this before.more than once. :stupid:

 

My 2 cents

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Vortex -----that little "ditty" proves that you haven't grown stupid since I last saw you anyway. :D

 

Bladethrow........if it ain't written and signed on PAPER, then just bend over and ask them to at least kiss you while they are doing it. If it ain't written down then you are trusting people at their word.....and this is the 21st century now......not the late 40's of the last one, when maybe a written cheque could be trusted or a person's word.

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