Definition Of "flight Time"?

[Blackmac]

If the customer is asked wether or not the helicopter should be shutdown as he runs out to check something, and he claims he will only be a couple of minutes why should he not get charged for it?  Have you seen the price of fuel lately? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Klipper: If you are familiar with the Standing Offers or contracts put out by PWGSC and the "Air Charter Conditions" which form a part of every contract, the rules were taken from the original rules that applied prior to 1987 or de-regulation.

A continous flight regime that requires numerous landings and take-offs such as flights on gravity surveys will be considered as one flight from take-off to final landing in the determination of air time or time charged against the aircraft and the customer.

 

Should a customer wish to play games such as you stated, use the following scenario, assuming a turbine engine.

 

After you are asked to shut down and client returns five minutes later, you inform the client that you are unable to restart the aircraft as the residual heat build up in the turbine takes at least 20 to 30 minutes to dissapitate, worked for me.

 

Cheers Don

[Klipper]

We ran into this problem running our R44 helicopters, the common practise when flying an R22 or R44 is to use the hobbs meter for recording your flight time. The early models of these helicopters had an oil pressure activated hobbs meter meaning the moment there was oilpressure in the engine the hobbs started turning. This raised the question of when does your 2200 overhaul really come due as there could be a considerable difference in your airtime versus flight time.

[Blackmac]

Any operator that uses a Hobbs meter in any fashion to calculate the actual time that is recorded against the engine and airframe time, needs a readjustment of his/her brain scan.

 

Fact: Hobbs meter activated by collective (electrical). Pilot sitting on a fire somewhere in Canada, turns on the battery, lifts the collective which activates the electrical switch, gets a whole bunch of airtime without turning on the engine or leaving the ground. Works on turbine and piston.

 

This discussion could go on indefinetly, but as you stated in your preamble you are using the wrong definition's.

 

Flight Time per say is all the ground time that an individual spends prior to actual flight and is included in the overall time that a pilot records in his personal log book. What goes in the aircraft log book is defined as "air time" which is taken from wheels/skids of the ground to wheels/skids back on the ground.

 

If not clear as mud, use the following scenario from a customer or pax point of vue.

 

If you had a B747-600 (new one) sitting in a line up at Chicago's O'Hare equipped with Hobbs meter(s) waiting for take-off clearance (I have personally waited 40 minutes, business class of course) and you used the meters to record times against the airframe how many airlines do you think would be still operating, or better still what do you think you would be paying for a ticket????

 

IMHO Hobbs meters are at the best of times inaccurate and are mostly used at fixed wing flight schools to overcharge the students.

 

If you havn't already picked up on the fact, most flight schools use hobbs meter info to calculate flight time column of the journeylog book, which is charged the student and in the next column the air time which is always less.

 

In a commercial operation the time charged to a customer should be the same time that is charged against the airframe and components.

 

Airlines calculate flying time for entry in the log from the performance of the aircraft over a fixed route and in a sence never changes, going or coming.

 

Cheers Don

 

PS:Hobbs meters are like me, been around for years and should be ignored.

[jetbox]

PS:Hobbs meters are like me, been around for years and should be ignored

 

Pretty hard to ignore them when a lot of customers demand the Hobbs reading on each flight ticket! i.e. forestry

[Charles W.]

" Pretty hard to ignore them when a lot of customers demand the Hobbs reading on each flight ticket! i.e. forestry "

 

Yes that is for sure an important consideration, especially when forestry is just crammed with some of the worlds deepest thinkers. :up:

 

Rev.

[alphonso]

Just to make things more interesting, Labour Canada has a completely different definition for the duty day (to determine whether you are owed overtime pay on your monthly wage).

 

Flight hours plus two. Show up at 0700. Fly three hours, waiting in cut blocks all day until 1800. Total time worked = 5 hours.

 

Needless to say, overtime under these rules is unpaid as you generally have to work more than 1800-1900 hours a year (depending on seniority/vacation owed)to get overtime.

 

Apparently the companies had major input into the making of this regulation and are not interested in changing it.

[Elvis]

Pretty hard to ignore them when a lot of customers demand the Hobbs reading on each flight ticket! i.e. forestry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

[Helilog56]

Now thats a "HOBBS" that I like to read.... :up:

[cap]

Alphonso ------what you say is true, BUT they make it even more intersting. If I'm working out of a company HQ, or company Base, all that company has to do is install time clocks and have me punch a card. THAT time Labour Canada will honour and MoT recognizes the difference as long as their important info is logged appropriately and truthfully. Where it becomes cloudy is, what about when the personnel are away from home and there isn't a time clock around? The information the engineer records about the length of his day doesn't cause his company or the customer the problems that it potentially does for a pilot or his company doing the exact same thing because of the definitions of "the Duty Day" as stated by MoT. I understand completely what you say and I've had many heated discussions with Labour over this during my aviation career. They state that if your actual work day is such and such and that differs from the "Duty Day" recorded by your company, then the company should be the one to record that and don't be bothering them because they go by what the company reports. There is aboslutely a total "disconnect" between Labour Canada and their brethern at MoT and compounded by the complete ignorance about things "aviation" at Labour Canada. They rate our profession the same as a normal "Joe Public's" 9-5 profession or some construction worker away from home for long periods of time and being paid on an hourly plus overtime basis.

[Sisyphus]

Please refer to a previous thread ‘Caveat Emptor, Helicopter Scam’ for some hard facts regarding common practice followed by some operators as far as air/flight time is concerned.

 

In Australia, meters to record flight time are required equipment. The same should apply in Canada. 407’s are equipped with micro switches that activate a clock when weight is removed from the skid gea and thus accturately record air time.

 

Refer also to ‘How Pilots Should Be Paid, For every hour they stand duty’. If pilots and engineers were paid by the hour, including for overtime, some problems would be solved.