Unions

[Fred Lewis]

From time to time, some posters are sufficiently motivated by job dissatisfaction to either hint or outright state that unionization of pilots and engineers is desirable.

 

While it is a mistake to assume that anything in life, let alone legal proceedings, is a slam dunk, a very compelling argument can be made that pilots and engineers are in fact working when they are waiting to fly or maintain the aircraft. There is precedence in Canadian legislation that states that employees are “deemed to be at work while on call at a location designated by the employer” or that “no employer shall, unless he complies with subsection (2), require or permit any employee to work or be at his disposal for more than eight hours in any day or 40 hours in any week”. Subsection (2) requires the payment of overtime. A pilot or engineer who is in the field waiting to fight fire, move drills or set out geologists has been engaged to wait, and the Canada Labour Code gives him the right to work (wait) no more than eight hours a day unless he agrees to do so and is compensated with overtime. Sometimes this agreement is required in writing and must be approved by the authorities.

 

Firemen are paid to wait for fire, paramedics are paid to wait for injury and policemen are paid to wait for crime. All of these occupations are unionized.

 

The helicopter pilots who fly for Transport Canada are unionized. An entry level pilot there can expect to earn about $78,000 a year for working a 7.5 hour day or a 37.5 hour week. Overtime is paid. His hourly rate of pay is about $40. If he stands a 14 hour day he is paid his regular wage for the first 7.5 hours. The next 6 hours are paid at time and half (there is also a provision for double time) so he will earn at least another $360 for these overtime hours. The benefits are numerous. Annual vacation is granted.

 

An experienced pilot who works for wages where no other benefits are involved can justifiably ask for $50 an hour. A 14 hour day with overtime would gross him $850.

 

The Canada Labour Code gives engineers the right to refuse to work more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week if they so choose. An experienced engineer is worth at least as much as an experienced pilot. Even if an engineer worked for $40 an hour, in a standard 2,000 hour year he would gross $80,000. Overtime is in addition to that.

 

Pilots and engineers can negotiate their own deals with employers if they want but it is easier and far less stressful to organize and do it as a group. Associations like HEPAC and the College are useful and desirable, but the one does not exist and the other may not be actually up and running for some time. The unionization procedure is straightforward and relatively quick. Several trade unions exist which will act as the bargaining agent for any bargaining unit that wishes to be so certified. Many bargaining units comprised of pilots exist in Canada.

 

Some employees may not be compelled to organize. Their situations may so agreeable that such action is unnecessary. A half dozen such instances come to mind. Some of these involve 14 hour duty days but averaging aligns these arrangements with CLC requirements. A few employers have made conscious efforts to provide their pilots and engineers with agreeable schedules.

 

Most employers are mortified by the prospect of unions. A great deal of jumping up and down and flapping of arms ensues. Unfortunately, employees have a legal right to unionize. Employers can try to frustrate union efforts but they fail more often than not and it costs them money. What they are dealing with after all is just a contract, and one they have ample opportunity to negotiate.

If unionization causes labour costs to rise, the simple solution is to raise charter rates. They have been far too low for far too long. If they must be increased by 30 or 40% to pay pilots and engineers what they are really worth, then it is about time. They deserve it.

 

Work to live. Do not live to work.

 

[Guest plumber]

That looks good on paper but unfortunately there is always going too be someone willing to do it for less.

 

From the 100hr guy all the way up the food chain.

[pilot5]

So how do you propose to solve the logistical nighmare of unionizing all the little companies across Canada.

 

To diffucult logistically!

 

P5

 

 

[Darksidelogger]

Hmmm

yep just as i had feared

ROSE COLOURED GLASSES

like was mentioned good on paper but way to many variables

[pilot5]

The helicopter pilots who fly for Transport Canada are unionized. An entry level pilot there can expect to earn about $78,000 a year for working a 7.5 hour day or a 37.5 hour week. Overtime is paid. His hourly rate of pay is about $40. If he stands a 14 hour day he is paid his regular wage for the first 7.5 hours. The next 6 hours are paid at time and half (there is also a provision for double time) so he will earn at least another $360 for these overtime hours. The benefits are numerous. Annual vacation is granted.

 

 

Fred. The Popular answer you will get to this one is that the guys that are working there do because they are just lazy and substandard and they couldn`t cut it in the real private industry! The union protects them from being fired because they need it. Realistically however you need lots of connections and loads of credentials and experience +an in with the old boys club to get in despite apparent `transparecy in hiring practices``Load of BS that is. Regardless of the expertise and experience required the popular logic will prevail despite any evidence to the contrary. Don`t get me started on what I really think about the highschool menality that exists, and never use the word `professional``Please!

 

Must say a union sure does good things when it comes to dealing with unreasonable management, and we know that this is far and few between . It would be nice if there was some form of mechanism that prevented carrot and stick head games or better yet companies that don`t back up pilots for safety calls in liu of loosing a clients. Of course this never happens! Right!

 

Don`t think a union is doable although it would be nice to see a mechanism that would hold c ompanies accountable to the Canadian labour code and immigration laws- work permits etc.

 

It`s nice to dream Fred about improved working conditions and wages but its far from the reality. The fact remains that the industry Proffes...( cant complete) participants couldn`t organize a fuckkk fest in a whore house !

 

P5

 

 

[Guest plumber]

The helicopter pilots who fly for Transport Canada are unionized. An entry level pilot there can expect to earn about $78,000 a year for working a 7.5 hour day or a 37.5 hour week. Overtime is paid. His hourly rate of pay is about $40. If he stands a 14 hour day he is paid his regular wage for the first 7.5 hours. The next 6 hours are paid at time and half (there is also a provision for double time) so he will earn at least another $360 for these overtime hours. The benefits are numerous. Annual vacation is granted.

 

 

Fred. The Popular answer you will get to this one is that the guys that are working there do because they are just lazy and substandard and they couldn`t cut it in the real private industry! The union protects them from being fired because they need it. Realistically however you need lots of connections and loads of credentials and experience +an in with the old boys club to get in despite apparent `transparecy in hiring practices``Load of BS that is. Regardless of the expertise and experience required the popular logic will prevail despite any evidence to the contrary. Don`t get me started on what I really think about the highschool menality that exists, and never use the word `professional``Please!

 

Must say a union sure does good things when it comes to dealing with unreasonable management, and we know that this is far and few between . It would be nice if there was some form of mechanism that prevented carrot and stick head games or better yet companies that don`t back up pilots for safety calls in liu of loosing a clients. Of course this never happens! Right!

 

Don`t think a union is doable although it would be nice to see a mechanism that would hold c ompanies accountable to the Canadian labour code and immigration laws- work permits etc.

 

It`s nice to dream Fred about improved working conditions and wages but its far from the reality. The fact remains that the industry Proffes...( cant complete) participants couldn`t organize a fuckkk fest in a whore house !

 

P5

 

I would have to say its pretty much unfair to generalize all TC employees as guys who couldn't make it in the industry!

 

I've met my share that have done more than I would ever hope to do that made the change for lifestyle purposes.

[pilot5]

I would have to say its pretty much unfair to generalize all TC employees as guys who couldn't make it in the industry!

 

I've met my share that have done more than I would ever hope to do that made the change for lifestyle purposes.

 

 

Yes I know Plumber but they are unionized therefore popular answer prevails, to assume otherwise is only wishfull thinking. The logic works like this:

 

1. Unionized= Cant cut it and lazy and below standard and need protection and should work at mcdonalds or get out of they dont like it.

 

2. Non unionized= Amazing and superior in every way and the true capable employees can totaly cut it and therefore dont need protection.

 

Its one or the other, just read into past posts on the subject, this is the popular thinking.

 

P5

[ray]

Most people in the helicopter industry don't have a straight salary/ hourly pay.

 

There is 'away from base', flight pay, sign-out pay, day-rate, or any combination of the above.

 

Generally speaking, the more revenue the company makes, through flying the aircraft, the more the crews make.

 

It is for this reason that most crews put in longer hours when the work is there. Allows you to put more away for when the flying is slow. Limiting how much one can make when times are busy will hurt you when things slow down, because you won't get that opportunity to make up for it.

 

For that reason, much of what is talked about here is meaningless and won't lead to anything.

 

Just my 2 bits.

[Tree Top]

Most people in the helicopter industry don't have a straight salary/ hourly pay.

 

There is 'away from base', flight pay, sign-out pay, day-rate, or any combination of the above.

 

Generally speaking, the more revenue the company makes, through flying the aircraft, the more the crews make.

 

It is for this reason that most crews put in longer hours when the work is there. Allows you to put more away for when the flying is slow. Limiting how much one can make when times are busy will hurt you when things slow down, because you won't get that opportunity to make up for it.

 

For that reason, much of what is talked about here is meaningless and won't lead to anything.

 

Just my 2 bits.

Salaries/or hourly pay have nothing to do with creating a union....biggest problem we have in our industry is the inflated eggo's that seem to think that if you belong to a union your substandard when it comes to your ability...the comments on this site prove that.

This site and the opinions for the most part by far do not represent the majority of pilots that fly in this industry, it would be nice to see if an opportunity was given to pilots that live and fly for our canadian helicopter industry to sign a union members card and see how may would... and then and only then would we find out if a union can fly

[49 Merc]

That looks good on paper but unfortunately there is always going too be someone willing to do it for less.

 

From the 100hr guy all the way up the food chain.

 

 

 

Well isn't that the exact thing a union doesn't allow. You get hired, and these are the pay scales in place you your job description? It doesn't matter how many people bang on there door for a job,or how low they will work for to just get in the door.

 

Pilot5

I've never worked for a union, so I don't have any definite answers. And your comments on the people that work at TC are mind boggling, are you serious?????

I hope your not, because your opinion is now garbage from here on if you are.