Vortex Ring Advise?

[VERTICAL REF]

Personally I'll take the upflow side over the downflow side of the mountain any day of the week. Just have to know where the demarcation line is and have a LL the according length! You'll never overtorque on the up flow side...

[skullcap]

VR

 

Do you mean the boundary layer or demarcation line, halfway down the mountain you're still in upflow and demarcation line is back at the top. Remember the boundary layer of air can be up to 1500 feet thick hope you got a lotta line.

 

Not all days are ok to be on the back side.

 

DMNY;

 

Don't like floating in with a load, can't tell wind direction when the disc is unloaded, if your flying a medium it just won't work. Learn to be fast elsewhere, on final with a load is not great unless you can fly the load to the ground without verticalling down. And my 4 cents is a play, most folks have 5 senses(sp), I have lost my sense of taste when started posting here :up: :up: ha!

 

 

sc

[VERTICAL REF]

If your working a ridge line stay above the DML and life is good. Anywhere on the upflow side makes me happy - top, bottom or middle! Up flow is up flow, the stronger the wind and the closer you are tucked in, the greater the benefits!

I would rather be in upflow and downwind than be into wind in downflow...personal preference I guess!

[VERTICAL X]

skully

 

Seismic drivers in the prairies best get rid of the habit of holding power till they come to a 10 foot hover. That is freekin nuts. Playing with fire will catch up to you.

Not only are you going to scare the crap out of yourself in the flat lands but what happens when you get into vortex above the trees.

 

Learn the onset of vortex ring, get out before you really get in too deep.

 

VX

 

Nothing personal skully, sounds like you are way too smart to pull something like that.

[Rotorhead]

I would rather be in upflow and downwind than be into wind in downflow...personal preference I guess!

Well that only make sense to those who've been there. I've had some of my best days manipulating the upflowing winds to do wonderful things. Now avoiding the downflowing air is the smartest thing to tell anyone that hasn't seen 2000 fpm down while pulling 100%. Luckily, I've only seen this while sitting next to my Instructor in Penticton. He did have quite a way of teaching that makes you never forget.

 

RH

[skullcap]

RH;

 

Been there too and on the left seat, downflow can be very dangerous and unpredicatable, but to avoid it is only necessary when you have too, pretty hard to do most days when the wind is blowing and there is something,somebody to get and best know how to do it. Have to keep the back door open, take your time, don't commit til proven otherwise that you can get there and back. Can't count how many times have landed in the east facing cirque on flat bit of ground, in downflow, smooth, 7300', 2 people on board, 50 gals gas, 95% Q to hover 6 inches. Yeah, not much fun but is doable(that a word?).

 

VR;

 

Strongs winds either side better have your attention, better not stick your tail to the wind in upflow unless you gotta place to run when your cyclic goes full aft, even when a line goes thru the middle of a cirque, which is just not supposed to happen eh, KW?

 

VX;

 

As I mentioned, I haven't tried it but know many who have and do and it works. The key is to not pull more power to aggrevate the VR state, thus a high rate of descent does not build and the ground cushion helps dissipate the VR's. And only works in flat terrain and is not recommended by me. I still hold true to reduce power if able, fly away, if you have a heavy load on line and are unable to reduce power you may have to punch the load if you can't fly it in.

 

Spookiest thing had happen was entering VR state in turn, was turning into wind(30-35kts) halfway thru turn pulled power and a/c fell like stone, landed with 100% Q 200 feet back of intended lz. When analyzing situation realized that the a/s had fallen but thought big deal, am turning into wind. The wind died down while in turn which was then a skid, upflowing air thru rotor disc, low a/s, and power=bad sh#t. Moral=always have a/s thru turn, period. Only other alternative is to keep disc flat and let wind blow you round the turn with pedals, many drill pilots do it, not good for dealing with an emergency though but gotta do what works sometimes. Flat disc in most situations saves your but I like airspeed for quick turn arounds even though it is sometimes slower than drifting downwind, as VR says, personal preference.

 

sc

[skullcap]

And another thing, ha. The best bet is to know how to stay out like VX says, my thanks go to Kieth Veroni, whereever you are Kieth thanks. Without him demonstrating it, well the first time it happened to me after would have been ugly. Was on 150 line empty, staring down the hole of an Astar line was 50 above the ground, bingo, pushed forward stopped, looked back down and the line was coiled on the ground 50', so lost 100' in a blink of an eye.

 

sc

[Skids Up]

From many a manual; You need 300-1500(transport says 500-1500, military says 300 1500 and believe that number is more accurate) fpm rate of descent, low airspeed <20, and POWER applied, have been in vortex ring many a time with no sling load and little power, is all a ratio to how high the rate of descent is.

 

Sometime when you have LOTS of height, from level height, reduce power to around 40% TQ (jetbox is where I was shown) and cyclic back to maintain your height. As you speed aproaches zero center the cyclic, pull in some power, and hang on. :shock:

 

It will shudder a bit, and if your are stopped, and continue to pull power in, (nothing rapid) it will fall out from under you. Cyclic will be sloppy in all quadrants and to recover, down collective a bit, and cyclic forward or sideways and it will fly out.

 

I had been flying for 20 years before anyone showed this to me. Its a good demo of what it feels like. We were quickly in about a 3000 fpm desent.

 

Enjoy the other comments - good advice :up:

[VERTICAL REF]

A real nice cream puff astar tried that flat land technique once, and ended up quite flat itself I do believe. YHT was her name... Have not seen her since?

 

 

Skully,

You are correct. A good/experienced/professional/competent (what ever you want to call it) mountain pilot always has a backdoor or two left open. Knows how to play both sides of the rock and has those days when man and machine have both reached their limits and the rock wins!

[downwash]

Just to be clear, there are quite a few references to 'low airspeed' in here, but I'm sure everyone realizes that it's really a matter of being without translational lift. Great input from VR, VX and skullcap, though.

 

There are, friends, various of reasons for not experiencing Vortex Ring early in one's career. Hopefully, most instructors, if not prepared to demonstrate the phenomenon, will explain it well enough (plant enough fear?) that most new pilots will be able to avoid it until they get far enough along to have it demonstrated, voluntarily or otherwise (unless, of course, the instructor believes you need a higher rate of descent than 300 fpm, in which case, come along with me while I show you). I, for one, had over 2,000 hours before I got off Hiller 12E's, on which the 'paddle' system controlling cyclic pitch, when in VR, was too ineffective to get you out to 'clean' air. I then had some great involuntary experiences in Bell 47's and ground effect did make the difference, in a lot of cases.