Air Time Vs. Flight Time

[WTF_was_that]

Don't f*ck*** think, just bill.................................................

[Brock_Landers]

Actually blackmac the company i fly for has plenty of contracts that specifically state that the customer will be billed on ops time or engine running time. If the blades are turning i want to be paid for it.

[Blackmac]

Well actually Brock Landers your company is overbilling their clients and the clients are letting them get away with it. You are not required or is there any excuse for billing anybody for flight time.

 

Maybe my english is not understandable. AIR TIME IS the only time that goes against the life times associated with the engine, airframe and all associated components. For those that don't seem to understand, that is when you are airborne.

 

When you are renting a helicopter the hourly rate is what it costs the company to operate that helicopter + profit and overhead which includes your salary.

If perchance your books (journey log) was audited against the hours charged and the hours entered in the log book, would they be the same.

 

If they are not the same, your company is stealing.

 

If they are the same you are still stealing, as ground time is not billable as there is no cost associated with ground time.

 

It is normally reffered to as honesty.

 

Try again to justify it.

 

Cheers, Don

[skullcap]

They do not necessarily have to agree. For example you work off a base with multiple customers with different types of requirements so you charge them as per your tarriff. Three flights for three different customers and each flight is 9 minutes long so you charge them legally .2 per flight and you then have billed for a total of .6 hours. You have this new fangled hour meter or hums kit that keeps track of your time and enter into your logbook the time you actually fly, .5. Where is the slight to any customer? Personally I use a digital hour meter for some jobs such as heliskiing and if the landing is crappy and have to hold power, they pay simple, if not then they don't, keeps some of the guides honest, but the hour meters have to be set up perfectly.

 

I think that if you are dishonest by nature it will not matter what the rules say, there are ways to cheat. One fella told me that he did one extra circle over every landing he did all day and added up to a .1 per day and thus an extra 20-30 hours per year.

[flyboy]

so if you're sitting beside the a/c at the fire base monitoring people around the machine... so does that mean it gets logged?? just to play devil's advocate!!

I meant when the engine is running and you are sitting inside :prop:

[407 too]

three flights of 9 minutes is still .6 of an hour. if you bill on 10ths why keep your own time on daily accumulation ?? Didn't you make 3 enteries into your trip log - the one you take with you in the helicopter ??

 

it all boils down to honesty and integrity, if you need to circle for a low recce, fine, but the customer will soon catch on if that happens for a no brainer landing site.

 

don't forget that some customers have more time in helicopters than a lot of pilots they fly with.

 

there are a lot of companies to choose from, and i would personally re-hire the ones that treat me fairly, and spread the word on the ones that didn't.

 

You have no idea if the customer you are flying is a fishing pal of your boss or chief pilot.

 

you should be able to look anybody in the eye and give the straight goods about the time you are recording with out any sort of explanation or justification.

 

air time is what it is, and any sort of "buts' or "if's" won't change it.

 

i'm glad the 407 has a squat switch wired to the cockpit time clock, makes life a lot easier, without making up some excuse about what you have billed.

 

 

 

 

 

[skullcap]

three flights of 9 minutes is still .6 of an hour. if you bill on 10ths why keep your own time on daily accumulation ?? Didn't you make 3 enteries into your trip log - the one you take with you in the helicopter ??

 

it all boils down to honesty and integrity, if you need to circle for a low recce, fine, but the customer will soon catch on if that happens for a no brainer landing site.

 

don't forget that some customers have more time in helicopters than a lot of pilots they fly with.

 

there are a lot of companies to choose from, and i would personally re-hire the ones that treat me fairly, and spread the word on the ones that didn't.

 

You have no idea if the customer you are flying is a fishing pal of your boss or chief pilot.

 

you should be able to look anybody in the eye and give the straight goods about the time you are recording with out any sort of explanation or justification.

 

air time is what it is, and any sort of "buts' or "if's" won't change it.

 

i'm glad the 407 has a squat switch wired to the cockpit time clock, makes life a lot easier, without making up some excuse about what you have billed.

 

 

3 x 9 minutes is 27 minutes that the aircraft actually flew,,,,,why would you log 36 minutes? 3 x .2 is .6 to bill....not sure the honesty and integrity comment comes from and even if you have a hour meter how do you bill three different customers who flew 9 minutes each,,,,would have to be .6 and then how would you enter the logbook entry,,,,,.6????

 

Have never been acused of padding abook. You want to log extra time on the aircraft, fill your boots but I know of one company which uses theirs hums system for logbook entry. Not sure why or how that could be contrued as dishonest. We don't, but do use our hour meters for log book entry. In the U.S. they use hobbs meters for logbook entries as well, to the point they actually put the hobbs meter number in book for many aircraft. How one bills is as per the tarriffs which are pretty clear. At Associated Helicopters years ago we billed the customer running time on a job in Arctic as the machine ran all day long as the customer did not feel safe in shutting it down on ice, so is that wrong too????

 

 

 

 

 

 

[407 too]

3 x 9 minutes is 27 minutes that the aircraft actually flew,,,,,why would you log 36 minutes? 3 x .2 is .6 to bill....not sure the honesty and integrity comment comes from and even if you have a hour meter how do you bill three different customers who flew 9 minutes each,,,,would have to be .6 and then how would you enter the logbook entry,,,,,.6????

 

 

if you flew 3 different customers with three different bills i would have logged 3 x .2 in my trip log, which would eventually make it into my flight log as 3 x .2 (or one entry for .6 if you enter daily totals) The cockpit clock can be reset to 0 after a billable flight or leg, ready for the next.

I log time in 10ths of a minute, not minutes.

 

skullcap, only the first paragraph of my post was in response to your post, the other comments were general in nature. The comments about honesty and integrity were NOT directed towards you. sorry for not making that clearer in my post.

 

As for the customer who wated to be billed for idle time, thats "GREAT", i hope you also got FLIGHT pay. But the aircraft log book(and yours), as well as the maintenance log should have only recorded the actual "AIR TIME"

[sling]

Well actually Brock Landers your company is overbilling their clients and the clients are letting them get away with it. You are not required or is there any excuse for billing anybody for flight time.

 

Maybe my english is not understandable. AIR TIME IS the only time that goes against the life times associated with the engine, airframe and all associated components. For those that don't seem to understand, that is when you are airborne.

 

When you are renting a helicopter the hourly rate is what it costs the company to operate that helicopter + profit and overhead which includes your salary.

If perchance your books (journey log) was audited against the hours charged and the hours entered in the log book, would they be the same.

 

If they are not the same, your company is stealing.

 

If they are the same you are still stealing, as ground time is not billable as there is no cost associated with ground time.

 

It is normally reffered to as honesty.

 

Try again to justify it.

 

Cheers, Don

 

 

HeyMac,

got your point there, but what about a company hirring a 205 for 15 location a day , 5 min appart of each hother.

I suspect the little swicht under the collective(giving your flight time) is not very welcomed on the operators billing...

I thing that both billing methode should be used depending of the type of job.........But on a low timer log.......the Air Time mettttttt got to stay.......not a quetion of buisness, but security when the word air time com's on the table!

 

 

hey!!!!!by the way.....I'm looking for 200hrs in mine...+ the one that would make after...

[sling]

Still waiting!!!!